Several recent conversations I’ve had with one of my Christian friends has led me to imagine what God would be like if they were actually real.
I used to be a Christian, so I know what I used to believe he was like. There would definitely be a temptation to go back to this mindset. But reading about God from the bible is only one way to learn about him.
One of the lessons that life teaches you is that actions speak louder than words. It would be near effortless to lie about my past saying that I saved hundreds of lives by donating time and money at a children’s hospital in an impoverished country, but extremely difficult to actually put these words in to practice.
Equally, it’s much easer to write a book claiming to be all-powerful, all-loving and all-knowing than it is to actually be those things, so what if he actually wasn’t? It’s not difficult imagining a lesser being who set the big bang in motion without having all the amazing traits God is supposed to have. It’s also not difficult imagining this lesser being having the ability to write a book, and then lie in it.
The most famous argument against a God having all of these traits is the problem of evil. In every situation where evil occurs, an all-powerful God would have the ability to prevent it effortlessly, yet they don’t. The natural conclusion of this is that this God is either not all-loving, not all-powerful or not all-knowing. I think this is strong evidence against the Christian God being who he says he is.
But there is something stronger. The Christian God is said to be a personal one, who not only loves you, but wants to have a relationship with you. This is in direct conflict with my personal experience. Even when I stopped believing, I still kept on asking for a relationship with him. I’m 24 next month and still haven’t found it. I would not describe a God who ignores requests like this for decades as personal or wanting a relationship, rather, they seem like a being trying to actively avoid one.
I am aware of the fact that many people’s first instinct is to lazily dismiss this as a silly non-believer just going about it the wrong way. But it ignores years of deliberate effortful work, as well as years of orthodox church education. It also ignores the fact that starting a relationship is not just the responsibility of one individual. I would expect someone who wants a relationship to be the one to try and start the relationship, not the other way around.
There are many more things that could be pointed out and deduced, however that is besides the point.
I don’t see any compelling reason to treat the bible at face value, and not just because of the scientific and historical discoveries that go against it. I don’t think it’s possible to distinguish a lesser being writing a book and lying about themselves with an actually all-powerful being telling the truth unless we look at other things outside of the book itself. Even if God is real, we shouldn’t take his claims for granted, rather test and find out the truth for ourselves.
It’s true that the concept of an all-loving father is very comforting, and taking it away might be a little depressing, but for me I’ve always been motivated to find out the truth, no matter how much I don’t want it to be true, so if this were the case, I’d much rather know about it than remain ignorant, wouldn’t you?
My Brain Is Completely Empty 
For the problem of evil, I borrow an answer that I have thus far seen bear out:
Does darkness exist? No. Darkness is the absence of light.
Does cold exist? No. Cold is the absence of warmth?
Evil is the absence of the love of God in the hearts of people.
Meaning, an absence of charity, of the capacity to look at another human and see a human, but rather to see an object, an enemy, a target, etc. That, by the way, is a virtue preached by the Christian God, and which has significantly improved the world in innumerable ways, while departing from such virtue has brought on much of the world’s current woes and pains.
And, of course, if the loving, all-knowing, all-powerful God permits this, that, right there, is simply proof that He does not enslave us to His will at all. We choose by our own will whether we will be good or evil. So, big question: would you rather have free will, or no “evil” in the world?
As for your personal relationship with Him, that, obviously, I cannot really speak to. I can only say, plainly and simply, that as I have sought Him according to His word, He has answered. That goes into experiences I have had which are very precious and personal in nature, and very real. He answers in His own way, and in His own time, but He does answer. The question is how receptive we are.
It is true, a false, lesser being can arrange for a book to be written, or many books. The history of the Bible is one where many books were written over the course of several thousand years and then compiled, but other books have also been written, including the sacred texts of many other religions. Whether they are true or false is for us to see for ourselves.
Heh, you have made a masterful understatement when you call discarding God “a little depressing.”
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Good to see you Merlin!
The main reason why I wanted to write this was to give the same point you gave, “Whether they are true or false is for us to see for ourselves.” – yes, completely agreed. I’m trying to argue that you should use observations about the world to draw our conclusions instead of just believing the book straight away.
I’m still really interested to talk about the other stuff however.
The problem of evil, or the problem of the absence of good has many different factors. I don’t necessarily disagree with what you’ve said. Some of it is the fault of humans and cannot be blamed on a God. It’s also true that some suffering isn’t a bad thing. Imagine what kind of people we would be if we never had a problem we needed to solve from when we were a baby.
The main objection is all of the suffering that occurs which isn’t our fault such as natural disasters, diseases and disability, animals that burrow into the eyes of children etc. These are the kinds of things you would not expect an all loving and all-powerful God to include in their creation.
I like the idea that God will always answer, just maybe not straight away. I am interested in why you can say that so confidently. How can you know something like this? What about the people who have died while still requesting God to have a relationship with them?
I didn’t expect to have anything I wrote here described as masterful so I’ll take it haha. Compared to atheism, this world view is indeed only a little depressing. But yes, it’s completely understandable how something like this would be devastating to believers.
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Been awhile, hasn’t it? 😉
So, we agree about figuring things out for oneself, instead of just believing whatever one is told. 🙂
As for the why behind all the other things – not necessarily “evil” things, if one reserves that for what people do, but certainly painful – which happen to us… well, there are many things one can say. Just look what you said yourself: “Imagine what kind of people we would be if we never had a problem we needed to solve from when we were a baby.”
My church has a particular doctrine that all the pains which happen to us are ultimately for our good. We live in a fallen world which is destined to be redeemed and restored. Until that happens, we travel through a painful life, and here we show what we are made of. We may be kind or cruel to those in pain. We may show ourselves to be noble and selfless in our own pains or bitter and self-centered. We may trust the Lord’s assurance that these pains will not last forever, or we may curse Him for it. All those chances would be lost if we didn’t have such pains in the first place.
To answer your question about those who die while still requesting God to have a relationship with them… well, most every relationship I’ve ever heard of has involved not just asking for one, but pursuing one and building one, with mutual cooperation from both sides. He is with us a lot more than we tend to realize, but we have to give a little ground and actually go to Him if we want more from Him.
As for how I can confidently say I know this, you know how people talk about things that they can’t imagine? It has always been my rule to not use that lightly. So it is in all seriousness I say that, after having put in the honest effort, I have had experiences which I could not imagine, no more than a dog could imagine color vision.
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Your message arrived very soon after someone was not very nice to me, so thanks for this, it really put my optimism back into me. I didn’t have the time to reply then so I’m messaging now!
Yes, the human side of the problem of evil has never been compelling to me, just the problem of evil that wasn’t caused by free will. The idea of everything eventually being for the good is something I hope is true, but how was this doctrine figured out from the evidence around us?
Due to the fact that an all-loving God is more likely to interject and prevent suffering, while an indifferent one isn’t, I feel the observation of suffering not caused by humans is better explained by a lack of a creator or an indifferent one. This doesn’t mean that the probability of an all loving God is 0, just that I don’t feel it’s the most probable explanation.
I’m glad we agree on how relationships should work! I was intending to include those actively pursuing a relationship with God with honesty and with the willingness to give a little ground in the same group just for clarification. Do you think these people exist, and if so, what is the explanation?
I am interested to know what kinds of things you experienced, but because I wasn’t there, I can’t trust it in the same way as I could if it happened to myself. I would hope that any God wishing to have a relationship with me would know my desire for it, and be able to help me find this in the same way.
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Going roughly in order of your questions:
The doctrine of all these things being for our experience and our ultimate good can be seen in various scriptures, but my favorite is one where it is spelled out for us. For background, a major distinction of my particular faith is that we believe we have prophets on the Earth today, called by God to speak to us and to the world at large in His name. The first of such, Joseph Smith Jr., was tasked with reestablishing His gospel in modern day, so he founded our church, led the people, etc. They met with bitter and violent opposition many times, including savage mobs who took the prophet prisoner, locked him in a hellish hole in the ground, and preyed on our people in ungodly ways. At this time of great suffering, the prophet prayed many times, asking, in effect, where God was, why he wasn’t saving them and making everything better for His faithful. To which He was given a revelation which has since been included in our scriptures, and which has offered comfort and insight for all the generations which have since followed. That’s where He tells us that these things shall give us experience and be for our good.
Would it be appropriate for me to share a link to the scripture in question?
Now, as for the notion of an all-loving and all-powerful God intervening on our behalf, one must remember that He is also our parent. I can promise, sometimes a parent must simply stand back and let things happen, for various reasons. Sometimes it is so the child will learn, sometimes it is so they will get stronger, and sometimes it is so the child will change. Sometimes it is simply so they can come to see what they are made of, and grow in confidence. Ah, yes, and sometimes it is so they will learn which voice to trust, either their parent or their honey-tongued enemy.
I know for a fact that there have been many people who have sought God and His will throughout the ages. I know they have done their best with whatever they had. And I know by what my church has taught me, and what I have experienced for myself, that there is provision made for them, and for all who have done the best they knew how to do. So I know that as long as we do our best today, and earnestly seek, we shall find what we truly desire, either now or in eternity.
As for *how* one might go about seeking, well… I have been thinking how to explain this, as I’ve never really had to explain it to an atheist before.
We know God hears us, and we know He speaks to us as well, however, we do not always hear Him. That might seem odd, but one can look all around us and find people who are conversing – often at very loud volumes which any functioning ear cannot help but detect – and yet they do not actually hear each other. To truly hear each other, we must actively listen to each other. So it is with hearing Him as well, we have to open ourselves to Him and align ourselves with His spirit.
We do that by doing the little things every day. We read and study the scriptures, we pray and communicate with Him, we go to church and share what we learn together, we try to do His will in helping the people around us, and so on. In short, we practice at it, and we test what He tells us to do.
One such thing He tells us in our scriptures is to ask Him, and Him alone, if what we have learned is true. We ask if the scriptures, the church, the words of our prophets, is all true. And we are promised in our scriptures, if we ask in the right spirit, in the right frame of mind, trusting that an answer will come and with full intent to act on the answer we get, then He will answer us. He will tell us, Himself, whether it is true or false.
That is the root of my faith. The experience I had, independent of anyone’s interference, where I studied, I learned, I asked in prayer… and, when I asked with both trust and intention, I was answered. I was answered in a way that I could never imagine and which I can never forget nor deny.
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All suffering being ultimately for our good is something that we obviously disagree on, but I think we also disagree on where we should be looking for our evidence. It’s fine to share a link to scripture (if it gets blocked for spam I’ll just approve it) but while it may better help me understand your view, I wouldn’t necessarily see it as a trustworthy source in the same way you would. If it’s true that all suffering is ultimately for our good, I would expect to see this reflected in the world. While of course there is good from some suffering, I would point to things in the real world like suicide, child rape, starvation, torture etc. as evidence against this type of scripture, rather than use scripture to say that these things are ultimately for the greater good.
I think it’s very reasonable for God to not be interfering all the time. It goes back to the idea of what we would be like if we never had to think for ourselves or solve any problems by ourselves since we were born. A good parent does not overshadow or infantilize. For nearly every type of suffering I can accept this analogy, just not in the case of the examples above. I don’t think your example was intended to apply to those sorts of things?
I think the way I approached finding a relationship with God is quite similar to what you described, although I only did it with the bible. I had books like bible reading guides too. I definitely prayed every day and asked God if it was all true. If at the time you had asked me if I was in a relationship with God, I probably would have said yes to be honest, and I did have many experiences I believed to be miracles that God performed.
As I kept doing this, I started to dislike reading the bible. I found it boring at best, but most often confusing and morally disagreeable, I spent lots of time trying to justify and explain the bad things I was seeing, or apply things to my life that honestly seemed to have no application at all. There were many places that felt so far removed from the God I thought I knew, it eventually felt like the bible just wasn’t meant for me, so I shouldn’t try and force it to work for me. I stopped reading it completely, using prayer and my belief in miracles as a foundation for my beliefs. When I found good, natural explanations for the miraculous events that I had experienced, there was not much left for my faith to stand on. When I found evidence against the resurrection, I stopped believing, asking God again for knowledge and not hearing anything.
You may find it hard to believe but I really did want to stay a Christian. I wouldn’t have phrased it in this way at the time, but I did fully intend to act on the answer that I got, just like you said to do. The answer that I got however was complete silence, so I acted on it.
I am really interested to know what that experience was if you’re happy to share? If you have already written something about it I’m happy for you to share that too so I can have a look. I was really looking for an experience of God that I could describe as undeniable like you, so I’m happy for you that you felt like you got it.
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Eh, I wouldn’t expect you to simply accept our scriptures as evidence. That would be asking a bit much for an atheist to simply accept our unique doctrines just because we say them, ya know? 😉
You mention, as points against the notion of suffering being for our good, things like suicide, torture, child rape, starvation, etc. We talked just earlier about the question of free will and evil, before we turned to other forms of hardship. Those things you mention are, by and large, the results of people’s choices, some of them entirely evil.
And yet, even such evil acts are accounted for. My people have been on the receiving end of many evil deeds, as have countless others throughout history. To that, a simple, trite answer can certainly feel insufficient. There are yet more answers to be found, though, including how those who fall in martyrdom – or otherwise in innocence – pass through their death and are received into bliss at His very bosom, how those who suffer and endure and survive have given a sacrifice which is accepted and they are blessed for it, and how those who inflict such suffering shall inescapably receive their just deserts, having proven who they are just as much as anyone else has. In the end, it all comes down to the purpose of our existence and our reliance on the Lord.
That goes into a *number* of stories from all throughout our history and our scriptures, so let’s just say it’s part of what we teach. 😉
Speaking on your experience with the Bible, you are not alone in that. There have been many who could not make proper sense of the Bible, and small wonder! It’s a collection of *some* of the books which were written within Judeo-Christian history, all of them just rammed together willy-nilly, and though there are prophecies and doctrines and lessons which apply to us today, you are correct, it was written FOR the people who lived and died thousands of years ago. Understanding it all requires a pretty thorough understanding of ancient history and foreign culture. It has been translated and transcribed so many times that many errors were unavoidable, and there are so many versions of the same translations in so many languages that there are literally hundreds of variations of the Bible. And that’s not even going into what was deliberately deleted, added, or otherwise altered in the text by godless apostates who sought only for power over the masses. Honestly, that the Bible can be even as well understood as it is, by anyone, is, frankly, a miracle, and even then, people disagree so much that they form all kinds of different sects, hundreds of them, supposedly taking drastically different, confusing, and overly-convoluted teachings from the same volume.
This is another of our unique doctrines, where God knew precisely what was going to happen, and so He prepared additional scripture to come forth in our day, specifically for us, to clarify the confusion, dispel lies, and restore the simplicity of His word to us.
This unique scripture includes, in its closing chapter, a promise, that we can read, pray, and find out the truth for ourselves, with faith that He will answer.
That was the sort of experience I had, the details of which, I must admit, I am not entirely comfortable sharing in so public a forum. It is incredibly sacred to me.
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Sure. You can still share it as it might better explain your view/see what I already see in a different light etc.
I don’t disagree that those tend to be on the human caused side, but this was talking about the phrase all suffering so I feel it’s understandable.
I like the idea of everything being made right in the end. It does feel a little unsatisfying that we have to wait so long for it to happen. I also question if there are ways to make everything right, for example someone who was tortured and raped for years wouldn’t necessarily be able to overcome their trauma with extreme therapy, riches and houses. I think that if you could take this experience away from someone in heaven they couldn’t be themselves.
You seem to have a worse opinion of the Bible than me which is quite rare for a Christian haha. I know a fair bit about the gospels because I researched it but everything else, especially the old testament is a lot like that to me.
It’s understandable you don’t want to share. Those kinds of experiences are interesting to me. I can understand how someone might feel like God had answered them, but I don’t know how you could find certainty. If I did it, and just felt comforted, calm and like God was there I would not be able to rule out other options.
I did go through Nephi 1&2 earlier upon your recommendation but didn’t want to continue for similar problems I had with the Bible, plus I didn’t see the story of the book as reliable in the first place. But I think I probably will finish the book of Mormon some day (just out of interest if nothing else) so will try this test then anyway.
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So, the passage (or passages, really) which I have referred to are found in the book of our scripture which we call the Doctrine and Covenants. It’s divided into sections, accounting revelations received pertaining to, well, the doctrine of the church, its organization, practices, etc. Sections 121 and 122 are among the revelations given while the prophet was imprisoned in a hellhole, whilst the mob was preying on our people. I mention that for context. 121 begins with the prophet’s prayer and moves on to the answer given to him, first comforting him with verses 7 – 10, before moving on to other points of interest. Then 122 speaks more of the nature of what we may need to endure and specifically mentions that it shall be for our good by giving us experience, especially in verses 5 – 9.
Links as follows, for 121: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/121?lang=eng
And 122: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/122?lang=eng
You mention extreme trauma, in particular. True, the things we can manage here, and how we think of things which help, are pretty limited. We’re not so great at healing minds and souls. That is where the sacrifice of Jesus Christ comes in. To use a bit of our lingo, we are able to look to Him for healing the likes of which we are not able to achieve, where our suffering is “swallowed up” in Christ and His atonement. In the words of one of our leaders, “No grief is so great, no pain so profound, no burden so unbearable that it is beyond His healing touch.” It’s not that it gets taken away or goes away, more like His infinite and eternal love heals the damage.
Heh, to clarify my position on the Bible… hmmm, let’s say you met someone who, in the course of their long life, had been wounded in so many ways as to leave great scars, and yet continued to serve others no matter what happened to them, all out of devotion to the most noble of masters. Would acknowledging those scars be a negative thing, or just an acceptance of what is, and of the tremendous service they do despite their many injuries? Especially since they do it all alone… at least, until a partner or two shows up, full of strength with which to aid them.
No, I don’t have a negative view of the Bible. I am in sheer awe at how much goodness remains within it, as well as at the faith of all those who have had only this one volume, or some equivalent, to work with. I mean, I grew up with the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the D&C, and more, including continuing revelations given to us by living prophets today. I have *a lot* of foundation on which to build my faith. In view of those who have had far less and yet still persevered, I am humbled.
As for my own experience… well, there are ways in which we are able to describe it, but even the greatest of tongues can find things which it cannot truly capture. You mention calm, peace, the feeling that God is there, and that is true, but simply leaving it at that is like simply calling something “bright” when it exceeds even the intensity of the sun. And yet, I have been around long enough, and I have seen enough, to know, there is absolutely nothing which cannot be doubted and cannot be questioned. People can experience things as unquestionable as the sun’s brilliance, and yet be driven to a point where they deny it. People are not rational creatures only, after all. But for myself… if ever I deny what I have experienced with my own senses, then I won’t be me anymore.
Good luck with your reading and your testing. 😉
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Hi Merlin. Your comment did get unapproved because of the links, so I’m just reassuring you that it’s not been lost and it’s now approved. I’m not able to give it the time and attention it deserves at the moment so will be reading it later. See you then, Ross
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Hi Merlin,
I’ve read both passages and seen where these ideas have come from.
I would like to return to section 122 verse 12 at some point which seems to be suggesting God controls people’s thoughts so that the persecutors can’t change their minds, making the problem worse, as well as verse 18 which says that those who falsely witness against God’s servants are deserving of slavery and death, but I’m not sure how you treat this book authoritatively compared to others?
I very much like the idea of everything being made right in the end. In principle I don’t think it’s necessarily impossible either on this system, just very difficult to imagine practically, but I think that’s possibly true for believers as well.
I am now wondering two things. The first is why should we believe this to be true? I don’t believe we can reason it to be likely from observation of the world. This is because in this system, the completion of justice and everything being made right often takes place after death, and is therefore not observable to us. The only data we seem to have is a definite lack of justice in the only system we can be 100% certain exists. Another data point from my perspective is those who seek a relationship with the creator being unable to find it, suggesting a creator who if exists, is quite indifferent to us, allowing us to infer that the same would be true if the next life were to happen.
The other question is actually a moral one. Can we trust the morality of this creator, so that if everything were made right according to their image, that that would actually be a good thing? I would like to save that discussion for your other comment about morality which I am almost certain to reply to this weekend.
That’s a very interesting way of thinking about the bible, I appreciate the clarification. Personally I’m fairly neutral towards the bible, and my main issue is just that I’m unconvinced that its claims about God are true. I think it has some good in it, not just because of some positive moral teachings, but also because it has some interesting stories which have survived the test of time and are still widely discussed.
Obviously the scars are a part of the downsides; it’s mainstream scholarship that many of Paul’s letters in the new testament are forgeries for example. I would go further to say that there are some really bad things in there such as the laws for slaves in Exodus 21 and the mass murder of Midianite children in Numbers 31 etc. Every time I bring this up to a believer however, the conversation is always how these passages are either metaphorical, not historically accurate, based on Israelite misunderstanding or only fine in that context etc so they don’t really bother me nearly as much as they would do if they were to appear in a modern ethics book for example. I feel very few (if any) Christians use these sorts of passages as genuine excuses for murder slavery etc. that would be crazy.
I am beyond happy to read about how your experience was far more brilliant than mine have ever been, and could be likened to extending even the intensity of the sun. It gives me confidence that if I were to genuinely encounter God, it would not be so subtle that I could miss it!
Thanks very much for wishing me luck with reading. When I was very much still an angry atheist I wrote a post explaining my problems and difficulties with Nephi 1. I don’t remember it exactly but I felt that if I already disagreed here, then I wasn’t going to be convinced further. Are there any sort of follow along resources which are intended to answer the type of questions people have who have little experience with LDS? I feel if I were to use this it would be a much more valuable way of reading the book.
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You ever see A Few Good Men? Or a clip of that one iconic (and incredibly dramatized) court room scene at the end? Tom Cruise’s character catches Jack Nicholson’s character in a lie because, whatever else may be said of the man, he can’t look past his own ego. It’s a simple setup, really, but he doesn’t see it coming and he’s caught in his lies, to be held accountable for his crime.
That’s more what I think of when God mentions blinding the minds of our adversaries so that they are caught in their craftiness. Not that he’s controlling their minds to make them worse.
As to your questions, why should we believe any of this, and can we trust the morality of this creator, I would say that those are questions with answers so personal that I can’t really answer them for you. The decision to believe and to trust Him is logical to those who believe, and illogical to those who don’t, in my experience. Of course, the reverse is also true. I look at those who witnessed such mighty miracles as are found all throughout the scriptures, yet still did not believe, and I can only understand their lack of belief in an abstract way. Though also one which has been explained a number of times.
In 1 Kings, Chapter 19, the prophet Elijah, who has called down fire from Heaven in the belief that this would convince the Israelites to repent of their sins, learns a lesson. After his bitter disappointment, he begged God to take him from this life, because if pillars of fire don’t do the job, what will? Then there is a great wind, and an earthquake, and a fire, all demonstrations of God’s power, but His voice was not in them. He was heard not in calamitous power, but in a still, small voice that spoke straight to Elijah’s heart and soul.
The lesson is, one can behold mighty workings of God’s power, dramatic examples like the plagues of Egypt or fire from heaven or the visiting of angels, but these are not going to convert anyone. They may attract, entrance, or subdue, but that’s it. What changes our perspective is hearing His voice.
I think I’d like to wrap this thread up now, or soon, but as for questions which one, especially beginners, may have about the Book of Mormon, I can point you to no better resource than our missionaries. It is their business to help find answers to such questions. Of course, it would be a bit presumptuous of me to share the link without permission, but you can google LDS missionaries and it’ll come up under “who are the missionaries and how can they help you?”
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I’ve not seen the film but just looked up the clip. I guess that’s where “You can’t handle the truth” comes from. If that’s what it’s like I guess that’s what it’s like, but I would hope that it’s more that’s what they are like naturally than God changed their behaviour in this way.
I’ve observed that as well. I’m looking to be convinced by facts and evidence, but to many believers, religious belief is faith based, and if that’s true you can only use facts and evidence to get someone part way there.
I can sort of relate to you strangely about people not being convinced by miracles. I remember being at Christian events where people that I knew were healed and miracles happened etc and thinking how could anyone dispute this? Only later to become one of those people. It might be worth considering that even if you have a belief in miracles, it’s not necessarily easy to distinguish miracles from coincidences. To give a very light hearted example, when I was a believer I prayed to God that I would catch a Pokémon (which had quite unlikely chances of being caught) and got it for the first try. None of my friends or any of the Christians in the church believed this was a miracle, but I did.
I think it’s a very good point about what would convince people. If I asked myself when I was a Christian what it would take for me to convert, I would probably have said a lot more than “being convinced my experiences of miracles were mistaken and that the bible was unreliable” so it is very likely that being certain I heard the word of God would convince me.
I’m reluctant to meet up with missionaries at the moment because it just feels like they’ll just try and convert me. I completely understand that from your perspective these missionaries will be well prepared, polite, honest and truthful etc but the idea of meeting them in this way gives me the same sort of feeling I might have if I were to go to a scientology/Jehoavah’s witness/essential oils event, even if in terms of harm LDS isn’t comparable.
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For thousands of years humans have attributed “miraculous” events that they don’t understand to a deity. These deities were usually modeled on human behavior, because what else did we have to go on? Problem is, certain religions take this further and all of a sudden said God is all knowing etc, yet they still take on the characteristics of us humans – a massive contradiction if I ever saw one. There is much left unknown about our universe but nothing that points to a God. If there was, surely reputable scientists would be all over it by now. Even if there were a God, who’s to say we can even communicate with “it”?
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That’s another good point. Do the claims about the creator even match with what we see in the book itself? Very important to keep in mind.
I think the universe possibly pointed to a God before things like evolution and the big bang were discovered, but even then, yes nothing conclusive.
People couldn’t imagine the immense size and beauty of space despite living in it until we discovered it, so there is no reason to assume a creator would be any different, I don’t think our imagination could extend far enough to get it right.
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My point was that the Gods which are claimed to exists exhibit behaviors which are themselves contradictory (as well as the fact that they act like us humans). But yes these Gods also behave in a way which goes against the books written about them.
Certainly, if there were a creator, we know absolutely nothing about them. I find it amusing the arguments people make for a creator (especially their own). People often point to beautiful, orderly things in nature and attribute that to evidence, whilst also ignoring all the horrible, disorderly things.
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I agree that the large amount of suffering is often ignored. There will be many people who also explain this suffering as: we don’t know the mind of God, who are we to say if this is ultimately for good or not?
I think the problem with this is that it considers what might technically be possible, instead of what is actually most likely.
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People fear what they can’t see.
People are too busy worrying about God and here I am wondering whether be mother nature has big tits or na…
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Haha just seeing both these sentences next to each other is quite funny to me. I struggle to imagine any creator existing billions of light years away outside our universe seriously caring about any of this and wanting to punish us, so you’re probably safe keeping the questions to things that truly matter
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unsurprisingly, every god is the image of the theists inventing it.
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The ancient Greeks began contemplating God rationally well over 2500 years ago. So it is possible to gain a truthful, yet limited understanding of God without religion.
I teach mathematics, physics and biology at a Catholic classical high school. I show my students where God is in the math and the science. Biology is the subject that proves God’s existence most readily.
“It’s not difficult imagining a lesser being who set the big bang in motion without having all the amazing traits God is supposed to have.”
That statement is a logical fallacy because if you don’t know anything about God, whatever you imagine about him will simply be a personal opinion, not the truth.
In fact, if a being created the universe, than that being would be the first cause of that universe.
By definition, God is the first cause. So your argument refutes itself and is thus, false.
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Hi SOM. Can you please help me understand what you mean? I can’t really make sense of it. I don’t see how “God is the first cause” leads us to “therefore we can trust the Bible at face value” or “therefore God is all-powerful, all-loving etc”, if we’re going to bring up logical fallacies, then this is a non-sequitur. If you’re going to argue this, it requires justification.
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God as first cause of the universe is a logical conclusion. Trusting the Bible at face value is a matter of faith.
So, one does not lead to the other.
God must be all-powerful and all knowing to have caused the universe. This is a self-evident truth. Self-evident means you can figure it out if you think about it long enough.
“God is all loving” is a religious revelation.
I think the challenge is being able to separate that which is knowable by reason and that which is understood as a matter faith.
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yep, every theist makes their god up in their image. and all try to make the same claims that only theirs is the “real” one. Nothign shows that SOM’s invention is allknowing or all powerful.
every theist claims their nonsense is a “matter of faith”, since not one has any evidence to support their claims.
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Can you explain it if it’s a self-evident truth? The more I think about it the less likely this seems to be. For example all power necessary would be that to create an imbalance of matter and anti-matter eventually resulting in the big bang. I don’t see how all-knowledge is needed as it could have been an accident.
Now that I understand what you mean, I want to also add another point. I feel it can’t be taken for granted that God, if real, is the first cause. How have we ruled out something simpler giving emergence to a creator?
Please correct me if wrong, but it seems that my argument therefore still applies to the claim that God is all loving if it’s just a matter of faith.
Also, apologies for the mean comments that you have recieved. Do you two have bad history or something? I’m out now but will try and see what’s happening when back.
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Rossi, There was nothing before the Big Bang. There was no matter or anti-matter before the Big Bang.
The Big Bang is the moment the universe came into being. Something caused the Big Bang. That first cause of the universe is God.
Through the study of science we understand that the universe is not an accident. Speech actually takes place as living cells replicate their DNA and transcribe it into mRNA which is then translated into proteins.
Proteins are software specified, infinitely complex, precision factory-produced bio-tools.
Sophisticated tools and speech are the signal of human-like intelligence.
Since human beings do not speak living creatures into being, the speech that takes place within living cells proves the existence of God.
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Rossi, to understand what is self-evident a person must learn how to think logically. About 100% of what you post is based on falsehoods and flawed thinking.
The purpose of education is so that citizens learn how to think rationally and to be able to tell the difference between truth and falsehood, fact and fiction.
Your education is up to you.
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Hi SOM. You can just call me Ross, Rossiroad is just a nickname I made that’s stuck. This reply got quite long, but I suppose that means we’ve just stumbled upon an interesting area!
If it’s self-evident you should be able to explain it quite easily. I’m not in the business of debunking Christians, I just want the truth, so I feel a little disappointed you’d rather criticise my intellect than make an attempt at communicating.
“That first cause of the universe is God” is an assertion that you cannot demonstrate. This also says nothing about the nature of a God, which is what I wanted an explanation for. If I were to think about your argument here logically I would write it like this:
The Big Bang is the moment the universe came into being – premise I agree with
Something caused the Big Bang – premise I am uncertain of, but willing to grant for the sake of argument
That first cause of the universe is God – also technically a premise, so there is no conclusion or argument.
I suppose it shouldn’t surprise me that you feel I don’t think logically if something like this is logical to you. Anyone who does not use logic correctly thinks that the illogical is logical after all.
I’m kind of surprised to see you bring up DNA as well because I thought you said you teach biology? If so, you should know better than me about how evolution, a naturalistic explanation, can cause this.
I’ll readily admit to not knowing very much about quantum mechanics, and you were definitely correct to point out time not existing before the big bang (at least in the way that we understand it). My understanding of this specific theory comes from a book called “A universe from nothing” by Lawrence Krauss which does not have fringe concepts as far as I’m aware. I’ll try to explain it as best I can because I really want to know what someone who knows physics has to say about it, as if I’m looking to critique the theory, I don’t really know where to go as I don’t have the knowledge to attack it myself.
It’s hypothesised that conditions around the singularity were so extreme that classical notions of space time break down and quantum effects become much more significant. These are the conditions where matter and antimatter pairings would emerge. If there was any slight imbalance between matter and antimatter here, it would then lead to the universe we see today.
So all that would be needed to create our universe is the power to do that once. An all-powerful being would be able to do this process as many times as they want, but not a lesser being. So we can’t be confident on which type of creator exists, if there even is one.
Also once you concede that a God operating outside space and time can exist, other things operating outside of space and time are also a possibility. I don’t see how you have ruled out any of these other possible things being the first cause instead.
“About 100% of what you post is based on falsehoods and flawed thinking.” is something you need to demonstrate, without that it’s no different to saying “I think you’re wrong” and is essentially meaningless.
I like to listen (or in this case read) charitably. If you want others to study and learn, I feel you should be willing to do the same yourself. It seems to me like you expect me to think in the same way as you, as if I will have a similar understanding of theology and the real world as you do. I think this is what led to me breaking down your argument into a logical statement and not really getting near the same conclusion as you. If this frustrates you, could you please try and explain things as clearly as possible? Things such as that which are very clear to you aren’t very clear to me, and it’s a waste of your time as well to try and explain something in a way in which it doesn’t make sense to the other person reading it.
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Ross, I have not criticized your intellect. Everyone needs education. I went to college many years and have pondered many decades on what I have been telling you.
The questions you are asking me here, I asked myself when I was 12 years old. I was able to answer my own questions because the answers were self evident, meaning I could figure out the answers myself.
You need to do the same.
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Hi SOM,
I think that’s the problem then. I know you said it just to try and make fun of me, but if you’re views and opinions really haven’t evolved since you were 12 years old that explains this whole conversation.
It seems obvious that you’re not looking for a productive conversation so I will not try and have one. Catch up again later maybe if you want to talk honestly and without insulting me.
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Ross, I am not making fun of you! I am saying you need to put the time in. You need to think for yourself.
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Thanks for the clarification SOM. If you mean what you say here please be more careful about what you write. For example it’s very patronising to be told I need to think for myself as if I had never done that before in my life. Thinking for myself is why I’m here writing!
Once again, I call on you to act the way you want others to. If you want others to think for themselves, you should too.
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Ross, The truth is not patronizing. And how do you know whether you are thinking for yourself?
I am acting the way I want others to. I want others to tell me the truth.
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SOM, why ask me now? You’ve already decided that you know my own thought process better than I do. There’s nothing more for me to respond to other than call out this extreme dishonesty and say goodbye. Be better
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Ross, Knowing people’s thought process is a good thing. It is a huge part of being able to have a meaningful conversation.
You have no idea about my thought process. That is why you become defensive and offended.
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aka SOM lies to children as his profession. Unsurprisingly, biology doesn’t show his god exists at all since SOM uses the same arguments as other religions do and he doesn’t accept their claims. No reason then to accept his.
not one theist knows anything about their god, and all they have are personal opinions, no truth at all. It is notable that not one self-professed christian can do what his supposed savior promsies in the bible. This would show that there is a problem somewhere.
His god is no more “first cause” than any other god, he, like all other theists, simply insists that is so.
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club, Why are you so hatefully afraid of two people from opposite sides of the fence having a civil conversation?
Why so much hate?
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poor SOM can’t show I’m wrong and tries to claim that his lies are okay in a civil conversation.
I hate the harm that the lies of christians like you cause.
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club, I don’t need to show how wrong you are. You do that yourself as no one else can.
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Yep, SOM has nothing as usual to support his claims. It’s great to see a cultist who can’t do what his jesus promises per the bible. Per his own religion, SOM is a fraud.
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club, I have supported all my claims. Please get educated so you can understand what I am talking about.
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That’s a typical false claim from SOM. Unsurprisnigly, christians very much care on how one is saved, it being one of the reasons they’ve murdered each other over the years.
He has also failed with his lies that his cult has created the US, or western civilization. The reason I know he’s failed is because I am well educated. He is not.
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club, You say the same foul, nasty, hateful things every time you comment. People who do that are covering up some inadequacy or other.
Why not take a walk on the wild side by not being so nasty and hateful?
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Unsurprisingly, SOM finds anything that shows he is wrong to be “nasty and hateful”. Then he tries to lie about me, showing yet again that he ignores his god when convenient.
“club, You say the same foul, nasty, hateful things every time you comment. People who do that are covering up some inadequacy or other.
Why not take a walk on the wild side by not being so nasty and hateful?”
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